by answering for his own life
Viv and I reviewed pictures of Ariel (the Little Mermaid) for her own new door to her bedroom and we came to the conclusion, Viv will not be pleased with a silver silhouette of Ariel, Daddy is going to have to really draw her. Lo and behold, what did I find? But step by step instructions on how to sketch her. So I’ll have her ready for her next visit, but it’s gonna look sweet.
Bubs slept over at his Memom’s with his cousin Elijah and his Aunt Ruthie (this might be their last chance to see each other before the kids leave on Sunday). Viv and I anxiously awaited Mr. E’s owner, Holly to arrive for Viv’s pedicure, but Holly had a sick baby and we rescheduled for tonight. Pumpkin and I read a pile of books including Leon the Chameleon.
My appointment with my therapist was interesting. I’ve gone back into the spin cycle again in light of some recent events, specifically… questioning the sanctity of marriage as an institution.
Why do people get married? Why do people need to legally indenture themselves to one another? I believe in life long loving relationships absolutely. But why the institution of marriage?
Defenders of matrimony point at divorce as the problem. Oh, I think that’s very wrong. The problem is deeper in the fabric of our society right now. Most have these deeply ingrained self entitlement (minus the responsibility of course) in their core. Along with that, and perhaps more tragically is the inability to understand that we own our choices. I’ll go back to my favorite Viktor Frankl quote…
“Ultimately, man should not ask what the meaning of his life is, but rather must recognize that it is he who is asked. In a word, each man is questioned by life; and he can only answer to life by answering for his own life; to life he can only respond by being responsible.”
Divorce isn’t the problem, marriage is. People go to pre-marital counseling to ferret out any issues ahead of time… how many of those folks in these programs put the brakes on the ceremony at that point? No matter how many flags are raised. They still are going to get unhappily married.
Think of yourself 10 years ago as a separate person, and how about another person 10 years prior – would those three people get along in a room? Now add your spouses three decades of people – how about all six of them together now?
And what about couples counseling… anyone know anyone that remained married after heading to counseling? Anyone? I don’t know anyone, unless there was an addiction in the mix (i.e. spouse has a drinking problem).
I’m not asking these solely under the guise of the jaded divorced guy visage, I also want and need my children to begin learning that life long love and life long loving relationships between two people do exist in this world. But do I believe in the getting married portion of that myself? I’m not sure. That’s what I’m really hurting on right now. I want my kids to know that love exists and is the answer.
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July 31st, 2008 at 9:37 am
Good questions – which of course means they don’t have clear and simple answers. I think you’re right about entitlement and lack of personal responsibility playing into the whole mix. Plus I think people see relationships in tv and movies, but don’t see the work that goes into maintaining those relationships. So when they hit the work part of the equation, one or both isn’t able to/doesn’t want to do the work required – maybe doesn’t have the skills, maybe thinks that because the work is required, the relationship is inherently flawed.
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July 31st, 2008 at 10:01 am
I did the marriage thing and parts of it were very good and parts were not so good. The marriage dissolved and we got divorced. But I’m gearing up for another try at it with someone I feel shares more of the sense of togetherness and adventure in life which is what was missing the first time around. The thing is, I don’t believe that we have to be married to share that. But I do think there is something happy and celebratory to stand up in front of friends and family and say “this is the best person in the world and we want to share our joy with you all”. Marriage isn’t easy. Hell, relationships aren’t easy. I do think there is way too much tradition, pressure and “because that’s what you’re supposed to do” attached to getting married. At is simplest, that’s not what love or marriage should be about. Love does exist and, man, if you haven’t shown your kids that by all that you have shared with us here then no one has! They’ll get it, Van. They’ll see the love through you and know it in their hearts. And that lesson will go with them their entire lives. Someday Viv will come to you and say she’s getting married and you will know all the right questions to ask her and have all the right advice to give her. And then, you’ll let her make up her own mind whether to marry or not.
July 31st, 2008 at 10:03 am
Marriage was never about love until the emergence of the middle class in America. It was never intended to be. It’s no wonder the divorce rate is high.
I have mixed feelings about marriage – the mixy part coming from interpretations of societal norm, not from personal conviction. I told my father last year that if I was to ever get married he would not be giving me away… He wasn’t pleased, but I’m not cattle.
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July 31st, 2008 at 10:13 am
Oh man, Van, I know I haven’t commented in awhile (sorry!) but this got me thinking.
First, your children will learn that love is the answer from the different kinds of love they see and experience, this can be love from their parents, love toward each other, love from extended family, friends, and someday lovers.
Second, you’re right. Lifelong loving relationships can exist both within and outside of marriage. Sure, people change, and you don’t know what that means. But I think part of the point of marriage is to know someone so well *before* walking down the aisle that you’ve seen them grow and change and you know the direction they’re headed and you believe that having each other will make you grow and change into better people. Fundamentally, you should bring out the best in each other, and over the year
I suppose I am a “defender of matrimony” as you put it. I have know two great love stories in my life – that of my grandparents and Michael’s grandparents. They had quiet, content love that let them raise children, travel, pursue activities, and when the time came, visit the sicker partner in the nursing home daily, holding their hand when the other person didn’t recognize their name. I want to get married because I love Michael and when I talk about him and say “my boyfriend” it doesn’t at all express the depth of what I feel for him, for his family, for the way he has changed my life. Getting married is saying “this is it. if it were up to me, you’d be the one I’m sitting next to at 80, feeding broth and remembering a lifetime of love and memories.” Sounds cheesy, I know. And of course, you can write this all off as the ramblings of someone so excited before getting married. And it is.
Just because your marriage didn’t work doesn’t mean that with a different person, or under a different set of circumstances, you couldn’t have found that lifelong love. And I believe you still will. It’s hard to think of it as “why would you shackle yourself to someone?” when you’ve found the person you want to be shackled with.
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July 31st, 2008 at 10:49 am
I understand where you’re coming from. I’d have the same questions. I had one bad marriage and one great on so I’m not much help on this question. I like being married but it’s probably because I have the perfect mate.
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July 31st, 2008 at 10:57 am
Chris – exactly. it’s a core values issue with our society, not even as specific as the problem of divorce on families.
Mary – love isn’t a question for me at all. life long loving relationships – i’m good with those. i’m just stuck with that question – why get married?
Kelley – that’s the thing 30-40 years ago, you worked through your problems. divorce wasn’t an escape hatch button right next to your blackberry and flatscreen TV remote like it is today. divorce is a virus and once it has permeated your family, it becomes that easy to open bottle of family poison
Sarah – honestly, I’m barely speaking about my own experience. i’m watching friends and family marriages explode around me like shells. and i think you and Michael have it right – would you stay with this person if they were suddenly in a wheelchair, lose their job, have a special needs family member? if you both can answer those with honest yes’s, you should be ok. and it’s not even the shackled connotation. why the legal binding to another human being? i can be in a life long commitment with someone that treats me well and i treat them well, easily. why does this need to be a commitment on paper?
Bud – i think you just did
July 31st, 2008 at 11:00 am
I’m afraid I’m not much help on the Marriage Question. I’m the product of a bad marriage, but somehow managed to find myself in a great one (together for 22 years, married for 13). But, it’s stupid hard work.
P.S. Why do I have a feeling you may be drawing a Daddy Version of Ariel as well? ; )
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July 31st, 2008 at 11:19 am
Greata – I’m not painting it on my door if that’s what you’re askin’
July 31st, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Marriage is what you make of it. To some, it’s just an institution, a formality, legally binding yourself to another person. If that’s all it is, then maybe getting married isn’t the best thing for them. No problem there.
I’m not religious, and I don’t really care about the legal implications of marriage. So what’s the point? The point is the sanctity of our relationship. The point is telling Sarah “I’ll always be with you.” And telling anyone who might flirt with her, “you keep your damn hands off her.” The point is to make that lifelong commitment in the most explicit possible way. To announce my intention to spend the rest of my life with her, and share that joy with family and friends.
Can you do all that without getting married? Sure. I just think it’s a good way to accomplish those things.
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July 31st, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Tough one. Does marriage actually make a relationship more sacred? Is this the sanctity or just the sanctimony?
Relationships are hard; marriage or not. Does marriage change that? Does the legal piece of paper change the obligation to each other or children who are the product of the relationship?
Is it only sacred if the government or church endorses the commitment?
Do we fight harder to keep it if there is a marriage rather than an understanding?
I have been on both ends of this spectrum (guess which one now?) and find it to be an interesting discussion. One which has many answers.
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July 31st, 2008 at 1:33 pm
My husband and I have been to therapy, but it wasn’t couples therapy. My in-laws are marriage counselors (yes, the bar is ridiculously high for our relationship). We’ve been through some serious crap together and are still disgustingly happy. I could sit here and confess things that would have left the vast majority of marriages in shambles.
Would I get along with the me I was 10 years ago? Maybe. She would need a good talking to. Would I be able to be in the same room with the me from 15 years ago without bitch-slapping her? Hell no! And my husband wouldn’t like either of those women. But we’ve grown together. After 10 years together, we are still best friends. We’ve seen each other at our highest and lowest points.
Marriage works for us because we work at it. I don’t believe that you have to enter into the legal contract of marriage to have it, but it sure helps.
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July 31st, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Going in to it, I didn’t realize how hard marriage was. I didn’t think it would be a cakewalk, but I don’t think I was prepared at all for how difficult it would be and how much work – consistent work – it would be. My parents divorced when I was very small and I didn’t really have any sort of ‘role models’ as far as relationships go, you know?
But with my parents married or not, I learned that love does exist, between couples. Your kids will too.
July 31st, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Since this is my second marriage, I don’t feel qualified to comment, but I certainly want all of my children from both marriages to learn that particular lesson.
Best wishes
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July 31st, 2008 at 3:18 pm
A very universal yet complex post Van.
Antwerp is seeing the first tidal wave of gay divorces (of previously married gays/lesbians), proving that the institute of marriage does not protect against long-time personal change, marriage based on infatuation without a common goal or even much more widespread: the 7y itch.
V-grrrl once mentioned she only believed in unconditional love between a parent and a child, a concept I also stronly believe in.
I guess love is the keyword, but I’m often unsure how to channel that into a workable relationship concept in my own personal life.
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July 31st, 2008 at 3:44 pm
you sort of know what i think. but, mainly i think that there is no answer that functions as a blanket for everything. people are different–different things work for different people. you may never want to marry again, but maybe one of your children will want it and sustain it—and you would never want to kill that joy if it existed. my former sister in law is happy not to be married but in a domestic partnership. no one thing fits.
i’m not sure what i want to do. it changes from time to time. i just know that if i fell in love with someone (and i have once or twice) i’d want to be with them in a deep and abiding way. if marriage were important to him, i’d probably consider it. but, ultimately, love is what is most important to me.
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July 31st, 2008 at 4:16 pm
RRR…Are we linked? This is a very interesting question, one not easily answered.
So say you fall in love with someone – knowing that they have Multiple Sclerosis. They are very anti-marriage, dont want kids (which is fine, cause you have your one) as they have a plethora of genetic illnesses in their lineage. You and this individual plan to grow old together – without the “sanctity” of marriage (remember, I too am divorced and better for it) cause you know you dont need it. But all of a sudden, your love cant work – they need insurance, as their MS drugs cost $2500/month, not to mention the necessary IV’s of steroids, annual MRI’s, etc. Do you then bite the bullet and succumb to the accepted ways, because domestic partnerships are not recognized by the insurance companies?
As far as your kids go, you are a caring individual, and they will learn to love. You are teaching them compassion and love for animals (very important), love for their family (both blood and adopted) and I have no doubt that you are doing a GREAT job. Stop doubting yourself or no brownies for you!
July 31st, 2008 at 4:26 pm
“I want my kids to know that love exists and is the answer.”
And that, my dear Van, is precisely the final straw that made me leave my ex-husband. We were friendly enough, no one ever saw the ugly, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t there…eating away at the both of us, killing our joy in life and marriage to each other. The kids weren’t going to see what a great love story – yes, even the hard, sucky parts – looks like, only what a marriage of tolerance was, and that…would’ve been a damn disservice to them.
My children are the great loves of my life and I hope that will be enough to teach them what I’m striving for.
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July 31st, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Regarding the desire to go overboard in preparing yourself: someone aptly said: “A marriage focusing on the ‘rights’ of each partner, is a marriage gone wrong”. Certainly true in our culture.
July 31st, 2008 at 6:04 pm
You just want to draw Ariel’s boobs bigger than they actually are, don’t you??!
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July 31st, 2008 at 7:06 pm
“anyone know anyone that remained married after heading to counseling?”
That would be me. But at times it’s been touch and go.
I dunno Van. I dunno if i would get married if i had it all to do over.
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July 31st, 2008 at 8:24 pm
I read your blog all the time, but this is one of the few times I’ve commented.
It’s different for everyone; sometimes the reasons for us to be married (20 years now) feel simple, and sometimes the reasons are complicated, and sometimes I think there’s no goddamn reason at all I should stay married to this clown. Then he does something wonderful like laundry or read to our daughter or not talk for five minutes and I think, oh yeah, that’s right.
Everyone makes good points; my favorite is that it is a commitment that we feel so strongly we want to announce it in the most explicit way possible. It’s fluid, though, this commitment. Marriage is what binds us during the times we most want to get away until we reach the next phase. Are we the same people we were at 19 and 20 when our parents watched us get married? No. Would we, as the people we are as real adults now, have chosen as mates the type of people we were then? Probably not.
It’s just time. It’s commitment. It’s love. But you know what I think? In addition, sometimes it is sheer f***ing dumb luck. Really.
I enjoy your blog and the questions you raise. They are absolutely valid. And there are no wrong answers.
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July 31st, 2008 at 9:25 pm
I’ve thought about this all day; it’s something I struggle with myself. Why bother if the love is there, if it’s strong and deep and abiding… why bother? Is it to differentiate the levels of relationship, i.e. Just a Boyfriend vs. My Husband? I’m not sure I see the point. I was in an eight-year relationship that I finally had to end before it ate my soul. I’d planned on spending my life with this man, with or without that piece of paper, and the break-up was just as painful, just as gut wrenching and life changing as any divorce, and I can’t imagine having to deal with the pain-in-the-ass legalities on top of the emotional turmoil. Is that why people marry? To make it harder to dissolve the family? To make us think twice (or more)? I fought with myself that last year, stayed much longer than was probably healthy, because I was *committed*, and I didn’t need a marriage certificate to remind me of that. So… yeah. I do hope to meet someone and spend the rest of my life loving and being loved, but I can’t see how a legal contract is going to enhance that relationship.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:20 pm
I love this post, Van–the way you share something really intimate with us. Thank you. I’m married, but I don’t need to be; mostly, I just need to be with my guy everyday forever, and the law doesn’t have to sanction that. But there are legal benefits to marriage and certain securities and safeties we feel the kids are getting. Outside of that, I’m not sure the institution is the key to a marriage lasting. I do know that I’m crazy hot mad in love with my husband–that I am whole unto myself but somehow more whole with him. Truth is, though, that it’s hard for me not to come across as smug, as I so rarely see a GOOD marriage in action. But I can assure you that deep, wonderful, lasting love exists. Of course, we’re only 9 years in, but we have no cracks, no fissures, no signs of future problems.
As to your question about couples counseling, my husband’s best friend and his wife have, to my amazement, used their counseling to re-form their relationship. They got married, had a rocky three years, and were pretty much over. I KNEW they were over. The best friend was sure of it, too. But then his wife and he hit ground zero with each other, which rattled their respective cages quite a bit, and somehow that translated into huge shifts of priority and perspective for each of them. They just had their first kid.
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August 1st, 2008 at 12:03 am
I have a long and convoluted theory on this, but I have never been married, so what the hell do I know?
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August 1st, 2008 at 3:56 am
Hubby and I did the marriage counseling thing and it did help. We’re still here after 10, often tough, years. I’ve had friends who survived the counseling phase too.
I think marriage is for the security it brings in matters outside the relationship. My hubby and I have a living trust so that if either one of us is on life support– the other will pull the plug. Ghastly, I know. But I trust him to keep me from living as a vegetable the rest of my life. I We have all that stuff set up legally, from who gets the kids and making sure the insurance money goes into the trust account for the kids. I also know that if he’s injured, I won’t be kept from his side because I’m not “legally” his wife. This is what the gay community is fighting for I’m sure. Yeah, a lot of marriages break up. But a lot don’t and those of us who use the legal rights we’re offered are glad to have them.
Knowing what I know now, I’d marry my husband again.
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August 1st, 2008 at 8:26 am
I think marriage is hard work. I also know that one of the main reasons I got married instead of just being together is that we wanted kids and we both knew I would stay home with them. Unfortunately a stay at home mom in our country is not really offered any kind of affordable insurance without either a job or a legal husband. That isn’t to say that I didn’t love my husband, and that the insurance thing is the ONLY reason I wanted to be tied to him, but the reason we wanted it to be legal was because of the insurance and legal stuff. Love can exist with or without a paper, and sometimes I feel like the legal stuff adds pressure that isn’t necessary. I definitely believe in love, and lifelong love, but I think marriage is not always necessary.
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August 1st, 2008 at 8:36 am
I don’t really know how to respond to this. I don’t want to try and debate anything so I will just tell you my marriage has been a positive experience for me. I realize things don’t work out for everyone (my Mom and Dad included), but for me marriage has been a stabilizing force for me. It is always hard work and THE WIFE and I disagree sometimes, but we see being married as a commitment to each other and keep it in perspective we are in this for the long haul.
I know things don’t work out for everyone and what works for me doesn’t work for everyone, but it fits with our faith, our values and what we hope our children to follow in. Some people don’t need marriage to feel the sense of completeness and family, but we do.
Main thing is, I hope you find happiness (and you will because you have love in your heart, it’s obvious every time you write about your kids) in whatever form it takes.
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August 1st, 2008 at 9:02 am
Personally I don’t see the point of marriage. The only reason I married Mr. Jazz 20 years ago was to get free airline tickets – otherwise there would have been no point.
That we’ve been together for 21 years has nothing at all to do with the signatures in front of the Justice of the peace. We would be just as married without it.
I can understand marriage as a contract way back when with dowries and that sort of thing, but it’s an outdated institution in the 21st century. Or getting married for a good reason such as insurance and such, but otherwise….
Plus, weddings cost a fortune now if you actually want the trappings. Thank god I don’t have a romantic bone in my body, the quicky civil ceremony was more than enough for me.
But hey, whatever floats your boat, ya know?
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August 1st, 2008 at 9:20 am
This is gonna sound really, really simplistic, but I think it’s kind of like when you say something out loud it makes you more accountable? Like, if I think in my head I’m gonna run a 10K in September, but I don’t tell anybody… and the date comes and goes… it’s not such a big deal, right? But if I post it on my blog, and tell my whole family, and yap about it to my friends, then I’m gonna feel like a shit head if I don’t do it come September.
My point is, I think the institution of marriage has that same effect. I told EVERYBODY that I was gonna stay with this person forever. I said it out loud.
You know?
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August 1st, 2008 at 10:08 am
to all – these have to be the greatest comments i’ve ever seen. couple things
- like i mentioned in my response to Sarah, this post isn’t any knee jerk reaction to my own dissolved marriage
- some marriages should be ended, abuse of any form, etc. i’m not anti-divorce at all, or anti-marriage either… it’s really all about that legal portion of this thing called marriage that gets me. why indenture yourself to another human being? i’ve heard some friends suggest that marriage should be a 10 year renewable business agreement. that’s a very pragmatic answer to a solution that’s deeply ingrained within just being human
- a couple of you I think hit the nail on the head, Apertome, Maggie, etc. marriage is what you make it, the ceremony et all in the grand scheme of things is a very small portion of what it entails. you define what marriage means. there’s a very long existential diatribe about when a marriage truly exists that i could launch into, but that’s just all the Sartre reading talkin’…
August 1st, 2008 at 8:45 pm
I think this is really high level thought, Van. I love the comments too. Everyone has something to say about marriage.
I believe that marriage itself is transforming in our life times. Asking why people get married, is a very good question. Some of the best thinkers on this topic are people like Harville Hendrix. John Gottman has the research.
I guess my question is why did you get married? What were you looking for? What did you get and what did you not get? In there lies the key to what you believe about marriage, commitment and relationship.
BTW, if you going to look at the existentialists and marriage, Satre, or Camus really, are very good fits. However Camus made similar arguments against marriage. Personally, I think they were too twisted by the Catholic church, but that’s just me.
Good questions and good thinking… you’re recovering!
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August 2nd, 2008 at 9:42 am
I can attest that therapy DID help my marriage, but I know what you mean. I think one of the main problems with marriage these days is that so many people feel that it is disposable — if things start to be too hard, hell if they stop being fun, they just abandon it. In the past, people at least made a good go at it before they threw it all away. It’s a shame that something that can be so good can be so easy to dissolve. But I agree that there are times that people NEED to get out of their marriages before it kills them or their kids (mentally, emotionally — not physically, although that is a component (poor health)).
Oh, and rim.job. How could you NOT know about that? How can you take them seriously after that?
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August 4th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
wow, I have sooooo much to say on this but I’m all over the place. There’s the things I’d LIKE to believe in and there are the things that I’ve experienced that pretty much blow all those “like to believe” things to shit. However, I realize that my experiences are based on my choices and I have to be responsible for those – good, bad or simply fuckin awful.
Soooo…. I am just gonna stop there as I am the WRONG person to discuss this, sadly.
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